This is excellent. I used to be on a writer's page that gave great feedback, but then the thing fell apart because the moderator published a book and didn't have time to moderate the page and write bestsellers. (And he still does.) I learned to accept what criticism was thrown my way. I learned to use it as well. If you want, you can look at my writing and see if I actually learned anything while I was there. Granted, it was a Fantasy/Sci-Fi page, and I write a more literary style, I was grateful all the same for everyone that looked at my stories. https://benwoestenburg.substack.com/about
Sometimes I'm a brawler, other times I'm a Bawler... but most of the time I'm a Considerer. I'm also terrible about reading books on the craft, and I'm sure it shows. What's one you would recommend to a stubborn writer such as myself?
Ah, good to see you back in here, and with a funny one to boot! When I get feedback, I'm 70% considerer 30% brawler. Sometimes the comments just don't do it for me. I'm a polite teeth-gnasher when the beta readers are friends/supporters/acquaintances. I'm more of a pissed off brawler when my husband is the reviewer. He makes suggestions on the story (he's a writer too) that may work for him but not for me. Our minds do not work the same way... so I rebel, at first, then his (cutting!) comments seep in and I see why he said what he said. I usually find a solution that is different from what he suggested, but I wouldn't have gotten there without his input, so it's a win-win. And after he's eviscerated the thing, I'm ready for the other beta-readers, lol, fire-tested if you will!
Definitely a mix of Ignorer and Considerer. I've gotten notes from people that start with one bad note (more often than not, some rule they made up about formatting) that makes me completely write them off when there's probably other, good, notes buried in there.
Generally I write down any notes I'm given and then mull then over for a few days, to see if my dislike of a note is because I think it's wrong or because I think it's right and I just know the work I'll have to do to incorporate it (I am lazy).
As a grad student participating in research seminars, I had the great fortune of going through what we called "rip sessions," which are pretty much what they sound like. We'd distribute copies of the rough drafts of our research papers to every member of the seminar, including the professor. A week later, we'd meet (usually in the professor's house with beer and pizza) and take turns critiquing (i.e., shredding) each others' work. We had many examples of the kinds of people you describe in your article (The brawlers were the most frustrating, but I hated the Wayne's Worlders most. I mean, come on. Show a little life!) You had to become a Considerer just to survive, but I quickly learned how valuable it was to listen to all advice, sort it out, and accept the advice that helped me write a better paper. Once you become a Considerer, rip sessions actually become fun, and you wind up becoming a much better writer.
Yes - totally agree with all this Douglas. It takes a while to become a Considerer. I've never seen anyone start there. Ego needs to be defeated, or at least put aside.
Those rip sessions would have been very good training.
I mean... If you were in a good seminar (and most of the ones I was in were excellent), you could knock out a half-assed rough draft and the your fellow seminarians would turn it into a publishable article for you. Why wouldn’t anyone want to take advantage of that?!
This is excellent. I used to be on a writer's page that gave great feedback, but then the thing fell apart because the moderator published a book and didn't have time to moderate the page and write bestsellers. (And he still does.) I learned to accept what criticism was thrown my way. I learned to use it as well. If you want, you can look at my writing and see if I actually learned anything while I was there. Granted, it was a Fantasy/Sci-Fi page, and I write a more literary style, I was grateful all the same for everyone that looked at my stories. https://benwoestenburg.substack.com/about
Hey Ben, thanks for stopping by and reading!
I'll take a look at your stuff.
Yeah, that's a bugger when the people we know go onto write bestsellers :)
Hey, are we mutuals with Dave Wiebe?
No. It was Mark Lawrence.
We are each our own worst critics, and often come away from the experience hating my own guts.
Sometimes I'm a brawler, other times I'm a Bawler... but most of the time I'm a Considerer. I'm also terrible about reading books on the craft, and I'm sure it shows. What's one you would recommend to a stubborn writer such as myself?
A brawler and a bawler... yep, I can be that too. Ha!
Craft books come in 2 styles (for me) - the give it to me straight, and let's get 'er done type. And the classical, deep dive, literary kind.
For the first one, I'd recommend King's On Writing or Benjamin Percy's Thrill Me (so fun, so good.)
For the second type, John Gardner's The Art of Fiction is required reading.
Thanks for reading, Matthew!
Ah, good to see you back in here, and with a funny one to boot! When I get feedback, I'm 70% considerer 30% brawler. Sometimes the comments just don't do it for me. I'm a polite teeth-gnasher when the beta readers are friends/supporters/acquaintances. I'm more of a pissed off brawler when my husband is the reviewer. He makes suggestions on the story (he's a writer too) that may work for him but not for me. Our minds do not work the same way... so I rebel, at first, then his (cutting!) comments seep in and I see why he said what he said. I usually find a solution that is different from what he suggested, but I wouldn't have gotten there without his input, so it's a win-win. And after he's eviscerated the thing, I'm ready for the other beta-readers, lol, fire-tested if you will!
Our long suffering partners :)
Mine isn't a writer, so that helps (sort of) - but they are usually the ones that can cut us to the quick.
Definitely a mix of Ignorer and Considerer. I've gotten notes from people that start with one bad note (more often than not, some rule they made up about formatting) that makes me completely write them off when there's probably other, good, notes buried in there.
Generally I write down any notes I'm given and then mull then over for a few days, to see if my dislike of a note is because I think it's wrong or because I think it's right and I just know the work I'll have to do to incorporate it (I am lazy).
Ugh, oh yeah I hate when we realize the note is right… and then we need to fix shit.
And I dunno, you see that first really bad note and it’s hard to imagine something good will follow.
Thanks for reading Eli!
As a grad student participating in research seminars, I had the great fortune of going through what we called "rip sessions," which are pretty much what they sound like. We'd distribute copies of the rough drafts of our research papers to every member of the seminar, including the professor. A week later, we'd meet (usually in the professor's house with beer and pizza) and take turns critiquing (i.e., shredding) each others' work. We had many examples of the kinds of people you describe in your article (The brawlers were the most frustrating, but I hated the Wayne's Worlders most. I mean, come on. Show a little life!) You had to become a Considerer just to survive, but I quickly learned how valuable it was to listen to all advice, sort it out, and accept the advice that helped me write a better paper. Once you become a Considerer, rip sessions actually become fun, and you wind up becoming a much better writer.
Yes - totally agree with all this Douglas. It takes a while to become a Considerer. I've never seen anyone start there. Ego needs to be defeated, or at least put aside.
Those rip sessions would have been very good training.
Thanks for reading!
I mean... If you were in a good seminar (and most of the ones I was in were excellent), you could knock out a half-assed rough draft and the your fellow seminarians would turn it into a publishable article for you. Why wouldn’t anyone want to take advantage of that?!
It took me a while to become a Considerer... I thought I was... but I wasn't.